Diagnosing an upstairs plumbing leak can actually be a lot trickier than a lot of people may think.  In fact, when I worked for Allstar Plumbing, one of the questions we asked every potential employee during the interview process was how to properly perform this diagnosis.  Even when . . . → Read More:]]> Diagnosing an upstairs plumbing leak can actually be a lot trickier than a lot of people may think.  In fact, when I worked for Allstar Plumbing, one of the questions we asked every potential employee during the interview process was how to properly perform this diagnosis.  Even when making the scenario fairly simple, almost everyone got it wrong.  Here is the scenario that we gave:

“A home owner calls you out because they have a wet spot in their ceiling directly below the upstairs tub/shower.  It’s getting worse over time.  To make the scenario easier, we will eliminate the possibility of the leak coming from the toilet or lavatory sink.  We will focus on the tub/shower combo.  How do you go about diagnosing the source of the leak?”

Plumbing Leak In Ceiling

Almost every single interviewee responded that they would cut a section of sheetrock out of the ceiling and look through the hole with a flashlight.  Sounds reasonable, right?  It’s the wrong answer!  Here is why:

First of all, what if the leak is being caused by a fault in the faucet itself or the tub spout?  Maybe the leak is due to the trim plate not sealing properly or some bad grout or caulking in or around the tile.  In all of those instances the plumber would have created a hole in your ceiling that does not need to be there.  It would be a shame to remove a large section of sheetrock when all that is necessary is better waterproofing of your shower!  Some may argue that the sheetrock is bad and needs to be replaced anyway.  The easy answer to that is that we are plumbers – not water damage repair techs.  It is not for us to determine what needs to be done to fix water damage.  It is us to fix the plumbing that is causing it.  When that is done, we can refer our customer to a suitable water damage company.  We do our job and let them do theirs.

So how do we diagnose this type of leak?  Let me preface the answer by saying that during any type of plumbing diagnostic, you want to eliminate a single cause at a time.  This means that everything you do eliminates only one possible cause.  Here is how you do it:

Typical Water Meter

First you make sure that no toilets are running, no sinks leaking and no water is being used anywhere in the house.  You check your water meter.  Most meters will have a small dial that detects even a small amount of water usage.  You can test this by turning on one of your hose bibs so a trickle of water is coming out of it.  Then look at your meter.  The small dial (usually round or triangle) should be turning visibly.  When you turn of the hose bib, the dial should stop.  If it continues to move, you have a “supply side” leak somewhere.  You can further narrow it down by turning off the main shut-off valve to your house.  If the dial keeps moving, your leak is outside, before the house.  If it stops, the leak is in your house somewhere (maybe the tub/shower).  You can narrow it down even further by turning of the cold supply to your water heater.  If the dial stops, the leak is on the hot side somewhere.  If it keeps going, it is on the cold side.

Let’s assume that the meter is not spinning, so we know it is not a leak on the supply side of your plumbing system.  The next thing to do is start from the bottom up.  Get a ladder and put it under the wet spot in your ceiling.  This will make it easier to hear if water is dripping onto the sheetrock.  You may even want to poke a small hole in the sheetrock with a small screwdriver and let any standing water drain into a bucket.  That way when the leak starts it is easier to see.

Plug the tub drain, fill up a 5 gallon bucket (from a different source or water) and pour it into the tub, being careful not to splash.  Do that a few times until your tub is holding a fair amount of water.  Does that recreate the leak?  Don’t forget that you need to give it some time for the leak to show up.  If that does create a leak, the problem is with the “strainer” itself.  It may be loose, or the putty (or whatever sealant was used) wore out.  Often this can be fixed by loosening the drain, packing putty between the strainer and the tub and retightening.

If that does not create the leak, pull the plug on the tub and let the water drain.  Does that do it?  Again, give it time for the leak to show up, this is not a 5 minute process.  If the leak shows up them, it is the drainage plumbing.  In this case, removal of sheetrock will likely be necessary to be able to fix the problem.  If it does not recreate the leak, you have eliminated the drainage and can proceed to the next step.

Next, turn on the water to your tub.  Since you have already eliminated the drains, if the leak shows op now, you know that the problem is either in the faucet itself or the pipe going from the faucet to the tub spout.  The easiest thing to do now, is to take off the shower handle(s) and trim and see if you can see anything happening in the wall.

Next, turn the shower on.  Be careful to make sure that the water is going directly to the tub and not splashing the walls.  If the leak shows up now, it is either the pipe between the faucet and the shower head, or the shower arm itself.  The latter is the most likely.

If you still have no results, it is time to start splashing around some water.  Try running water over the overflow cover, the shower handles, different areas of your tile, etc.  Splash water on your shower doors too – anywhere where water might go when showering needs to be exposed to water.  The trick here is to do everything one at a time, so that when you get a positive result, you know what caused it.

If you have followed these procedures to the letter, your plumbing leak will be found by the time you get to the end.  Just be patient and keep your eyes and ears open.

Now for the spoiler – Can you guess what the majority of upstairs plumbing leaks is caused by?  By far, the most common cause is a problem with the tile.  Usually something that can be fixed by simply applying tub and tile caulk to the defective area.  It’s kind of silly to remove sheetrock from your ceiling to diagnose that your tub needs to be re-caulked, don’t you think?

Stay tuned for more plumbing info and tips to come soon!  As always, I am available to answer any questions you may have via comment, the contact page or our plumbing forum.

Thanks for reading.

Quite often a home owner’s first experience with a plumbing problem is when a drain in their home backs up.  Knowing how your drainage system works and the most common causes of back-up problems with different drain lines can really help you when it comes time to get your . . . → Read More:]]>  

Quite often a home owner’s first experience with a plumbing problem is when a drain in their home backs up.  Knowing how your drainage system works and the most common causes of back-up problems with different drain lines can really help you when it comes time to get your drains serviced.  This information will make it easier for you to get the right solution to your problem, and make life easier for the plumber who is trying to explain it all to you.

Let’s begin with a little plumbing theory.  Please keep in mind, that depending on your area, your lay-out may be different. I will give you a simple layout to give you an idea of how drains tie together.  Your plumbing may be a bit different, but the theory will be the same.

Plumbing Drain-lines (Remodle)

We will start with a 1 bathroom home, for the sake of simplicity.  Let’s say that the toilet is at the back of the house.  That is the end of your house sewer line.  Your toilet will connect straight into that main line (3 or 4 inch), go towards the front of your house, and continue through your front yard and into the street where it ties into the public sewer.  Maybe you have a septic system, and the line runs straight to the back of your house where it ties into the septic tank.  Either way, the thing to remember here is that your main will usually run from the furthest toilet, as straight as possible, until it reaches whatever it ties into (public sewer, septic tank, etc.).

All of your other plumbing fixtures will drain into smaller drainage lines (1 ½”- 2” lines called secondary lines) that tie into the main at different points.  Your bathroom sink may tie into your shower line before it goes to the main, or your laundry line tie into your kitchen line, but they all tie into the main.  The only plumbing fixture with direct access to the main is the toilet.  A 2 bath house is the same, but with more tie-ins.

Common problems

Kitchen/Laundry backups

Symptoms – The kitchen sink won’t drain, the laundry stand pipe overflows, or both.  The toilet flushes fine without adding to these symptoms.

Causes – Laundry and kitchen lines are often tied together.  The cause of their backups is usually grease.  Grease from pots, pans, dishes, clothes, etc. build up in the line and cause debris to accumulate (food particles, lint, etc.).

What you can do – Check to make sure your disposer is functioning.  Look outside your kitchen area to see if you have a small cleanout.  Look in your garage for a cleanout.  Try to determine if multiple fixtures are affected or just one.  Clean out the underside of your sink if the kitchen sink is affected.  Do NOT use drain cleaning chemicals.  They will not dissolve grease related back-ups, even if they can reach them (which is doubtful), and many plumbers will charge you more to clear drain lines with Drano in them.

Remedy – If the blockage is in the p-trap under the kitchen sink, the repair is simply a matter of removing the waste lines under the sink and cleaning them out.  If not, the plumber must access your drain lines and attempt to cable them clear.  I personally recommend that the plumber also treat the line with a degreasing agent and perhaps cable the line a second time, to help get the grease out.  This extra step will cost a little more, but will usually at least triple the amount of time it would have otherwise taken to back up again.  This should save you money in the long run.

Some lines may be so stubborn that they require high pressure jetting to get the grease out.  I also recommend visual inspection of the pipes under the home if the plumber feels anything out of the ordinary.  Grease is a corrosive and can eat away pipes.  You will want to know if that is happening before it creates a lake under your home.

Tubs, showers and lavatory sinks

Symptoms – Back ups of one or more of these plumbing fixtures without toilet problems.

Causes – Usually soap scum, sludge and hair

Remedy – You can try chemical drain cleaners here, if you feel bold.  They will usually do a decent job of dissolving the hair that is causing these problems.  Remember though that these chemicals are not good for your plumbing.  They can eat away at your drain lines like crazy.  Other than that, clearing these drains is usually pretty straight forward. A plumber may elect to use a degreasing agent if he feels the sludge is really bad to prolong the time between the next back up, but that’s a judgment call.  Tubs can be tricky because of the special drain piping they have (called a waste/overflow).  Older waste/overflows can be brittle and cabling through them can be all it takes to bust them free and have a leak under your house.  It never hurts to have your plumber peak under the house and check it out.

Sewer main back-ups

Symptoms – Since water always finds the lowest point to escape, a sewer main backup will usually show itself by toilets backing up into the shower or tub.  If your tub or shower starts to back up, check your toilets.  If they are “burbling” or backing up into the tub or shower, it is the main.  We are assuming, of course that they are both on the bottom floor.  The rule of thumb here is that if a toilet affects another fixture – it is a main back-up.  If you have an outside 3” or 4” cleanout that is holding water or overflowing, that is another sign that it’s your main.

Causes – In my experience, the most common cause of sewer main back-ups are roots.  Roots need barely more than a microscopic hole to start growing into your main.  From there, they just grow and grow and grow.  Roots can be so strong that they can literally break your sewer line up into pieces!  Other common causes are “bellies” in the line (flat spots that cause debris to build up), offsets (sections of the line shift under ground and become misaligned), and breaks that actually allow the surrounding soil to enter your pipe.  There are other potential causes, but these are the most common.

What you can do – The only really productive thing you can do in this situation is check for proper access points.  If you can find an outside clean-out that is 3” or 4” in diameter, it will save you and the plumber time.

Remedy – This depends upon whether or not you have a cleanout.  If you do not, I highly recommend that you install one.  There is no such thing as a one time sewer back-up.  If your sewer is backing up, it usually means there is a problem with it.  There are other ways to access the line, but you are very limited without having a cleanout.

Once a cleanout is found or installed, or another access is found (pulling a toilet, etc), the next step is to attempt to free the blockage with a sewer cable.  You want your plumber to use the biggest blade possible on his cable to do as thorough a job as possible.  If he cannot clear your line with the proper sized blade, the roots are either very strong or you have an offset.  If he needs to resort to a smaller blade, so be it, but you need to get the line clear for the next step.

Survey the line – Have your plumber run a camera survey of the line to determine its condition.  Some plumbers will cable your line and tell you that you need to replace it.  That may be true, but you can never know for sure until the line in surveyed.  Once the camera survey is done, you will know what to do next.  Sometimes the roots are small and you have some time.  Sometimes a spot repair will do the trick.  Other times it is better to just replace the line.  The point is that once a camera survey is done, you will have a better grasp of your options, and it is always best to make informed decisions.

While trying to DIY is always a sound idea, sometimes a 4 AM toilet or drain problem can best be solved by calling a company like this emergency plumber Toronto service. They’ll show up any time of the day or night and tackle the situation right away.

Well, I think I cover most of it here.  If you feel I missed something, please feel free to leave a comment or sign up to the plumbing forum and post your questions there.

See you next time!

Steve